I read your piece on Kwanzaa and Christmas, fully. While I understand the frustration with the cultural skirmishes around these holidays, there are some significant historical and logical gaps in the argument regarding Christmas that I think are worth correcting.
1. The "Constantine Conspiracy" overlooks Non-Roman History The idea that Christmas was invented by Constantine to appease Roman pagans ignores the rest of the ancient world.
Armenia became the first Christian nation in 301 AD—years before Constantine converted or held the Council of Nicaea. They celebrated the Nativity (Theophany) independently of Roman influence and continue to do so on January 6th.
Ethiopia has celebrated the birth of Christ for over 1,500 years. The Ethiopian Orthodox tradition developed far removed from Roman festivals like Saturnalia. By focusing only on Rome, the essay inadvertently erases the ancient, indigenous Christian traditions of the Near East and Africa, which celebrated the Incarnation without any need to "cover up" Roman paganism.
2. Nicaea and the Date The First Council of Nicaea (325 AD) did not select December 25th or even discuss the date of Christmas. Its records are available, and they focused on the Arian controversy and the date of Easter. The choice of date for Christmas evolved organically over centuries and varies by tradition (as seen with the Armenians and Coptics).
3. The Jeremiah 10 Fallacy Citing Jeremiah 10:1-5 as a prohibition of Christmas trees is a common exegetical error. In context, Jeremiah is describing the construction of an idol: cutting wood, shaping it into a god, and plating it with silver and gold to be worshipped. A decorative tree in a modern home is not a graven image being worshipped as a deity.
4. The "Shepherds" Argument The claim that shepherds wouldn't be out in December is historically debated, not fact. In the mild climate of Judea, sheep destined for Temple sacrifice were often pastured year-round near Bethlehem (Migdal Eder).
The validity of a tradition isn't defined solely by its distant origins, but by its present intent (the Logos). Just as Kwanzaa is meaningful to its practitioners despite its syncretic origins, Christmas is a genuine spiritual celebration of the Incarnation for billions, not a secret worship of Saturn.
Finally, it is completely unbiblical to suggest that all things pagan are evil. All Christians, even "I just read the Bible for myself" have practices that could be called pagan. The Bible does not record "pagan" as "evil."
A look at the history of when the Romans chose their date for Christmas, they acknowledged they were guessing. The real issue wasn't the date to pick, but rather to pick one.
Those who attack a holiday because it's new are off the rails; even Kwanzaa, had it caught on, would not be invalid.
What is being said every time this "Christmas is pagan" motif is that A) all things pagan are evil, and B) Jesus as God allowed and still allows billions of christians for the past 1700 years at least to celebrate his name and his birth wrongly, wickedly. What a pethic idea of God.
It remains that you cannot pick any day of the year--ANY day--that is not on or near a major pagan holiday or festival. If not in Rome, then in China, Japan, India, or anywhere else.
If we look at the history we know the Romans did their best when they chose December 25, though other Christian groups picked other days (January 7 is very popular around the world). That's because everybody understood: the date isn't from the Bible, the point is to pick a day to celebrate, TO COMPETE WITH pagan holidays. So that Christians could honor Jesus without having to feel like they must abandon and curse every single thing in their pre-Christian culture.
Collossians 2:16-17: ""Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality is Christ."
But there's Juliette Akinyi Ochieng, judging others for keeping festivals. Festivals they have declared to celebrate Jesus.
In every country throughout history, Christians have worked to identify customs that are harmless that Christians can still do. Winter and Spring festivals are found in every culture, but Christians can't have them? Why not? Where'd Jesus say that?
In truth, this "Christmas is pagan" stuff is rooted in contempt for the overwhelming majority of Christians for the last 2000 years. Literally billions of people are getting it wrong because it was placed to coincide and replace existing customs.
And is rooted in the unblical notion that God despises all things pagan, as if "pagan" means "evil."
If you just said "Yeah there used to be a pagan festival here, but they changed it to something to honor Jesus" all the objections would fall away.
Literally, "Christmas is pagan" is based on two ridiculous errors: The idea that pagan=evil and bad, and, the idea that Christians were covering something up when they Christianized their practices.
It is very popular with Fundamentalist Christians who have nothing but contempt for the historical Church--Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.
The African Christians in places like Egypt and Ethiopia celebrated Christmas already without Rome's intererence, too. Also the Armenians.
Literally: Atheists love this dodgy set of beliefs because they hate Christianity, and Fundamentalists who "just go by the Bible" are getting their contempt on for anyone who doubts the "Just read it for yourself and you'll be fine" approach to Christianity.
This in the end really did help utterly shatter my faith in the Bible: when you can pull this many contradictory ideas out of it, to the point where Christians slander and attack each other over interpretations, it shows, the Bible's not very clear on many things.
When I was still a Christian, and celebrating things like Christmas, I got mocked, jeered, harassed, and slanderd over and over by Fundamentalists for it. It was abusive, and dishonest....
And even though theoretically I shouldn't care, I still love my real Christian friends enuogh to be willing to defend them from this slander. No, it is NOT a pagan holiday. It is a holiday Christians, doing their best to honor Jesus under the New Covenant, invented. Which is perfectly fine, they all admitted this, it wasn't a secret.
Pagans continued their yule celebrations alongside Christians. Christians, opted to celebrate in their own way instead, incorporating harmless elements (like Christmas trees) as benign traditions. And that is all.
If Christmas is pagan and Jesus hates it, then... it just makes Christianity look ugly, hateful, and irrational.
The fact that these endless attacks on traditional Christianity never end, and are popular among Christian-haters, really does depress me.
But no, Christmas is NOT PAGAN, only people deeply ignorant (and usually hateful) give us this pernicious Christianityi-mocking nonsense.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality is Christ."
Fundamentalists have no answer for this: they're explicitly going after the direct words of Jesus from the New Testament, condemning people and slandering them. It is a slander not just of Christians; it is ironically even a severe slander of pagans!
I specifically said there’s nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas as long as one knows what one is doing. Also, much of our culture is based on Roman and Roman Catholic traditions which is why I focused on that. I do, however appreciate the additional history.
You’re still saying something that I didn’t say: that celebrating Christmas is evil. It is there that you are judging me falsely.
You say it's Pagan and that's a lie outright my dear. Keep saying it, and I'll keep calling you out as a liar. You and everybody else who gives us this irrational bullshit.
Christians have every right to create days to celebrate Jesus, and every right to develop their own customs to honor him.
Christmas isn't pagan. You're just being an abusive bitch every time you claim this. It is NOT TRUE, as demonstrated above.
I’m going to guess you didn’t read any of the links. And you refuse to comprehend my conclusion about celebrating Christmas because you want be mad.
And it is you who is the abusive bitch. I’m not on any of your accounts trying to drum up excuses for what I believe or don’t believe. Yet here you are and on my Facebook page, crying like a baby over something that has nothing to do with you.
Hi Juliette Akinyi Ochieng.
I read your piece on Kwanzaa and Christmas, fully. While I understand the frustration with the cultural skirmishes around these holidays, there are some significant historical and logical gaps in the argument regarding Christmas that I think are worth correcting.
1. The "Constantine Conspiracy" overlooks Non-Roman History The idea that Christmas was invented by Constantine to appease Roman pagans ignores the rest of the ancient world.
Armenia became the first Christian nation in 301 AD—years before Constantine converted or held the Council of Nicaea. They celebrated the Nativity (Theophany) independently of Roman influence and continue to do so on January 6th.
Ethiopia has celebrated the birth of Christ for over 1,500 years. The Ethiopian Orthodox tradition developed far removed from Roman festivals like Saturnalia. By focusing only on Rome, the essay inadvertently erases the ancient, indigenous Christian traditions of the Near East and Africa, which celebrated the Incarnation without any need to "cover up" Roman paganism.
2. Nicaea and the Date The First Council of Nicaea (325 AD) did not select December 25th or even discuss the date of Christmas. Its records are available, and they focused on the Arian controversy and the date of Easter. The choice of date for Christmas evolved organically over centuries and varies by tradition (as seen with the Armenians and Coptics).
3. The Jeremiah 10 Fallacy Citing Jeremiah 10:1-5 as a prohibition of Christmas trees is a common exegetical error. In context, Jeremiah is describing the construction of an idol: cutting wood, shaping it into a god, and plating it with silver and gold to be worshipped. A decorative tree in a modern home is not a graven image being worshipped as a deity.
4. The "Shepherds" Argument The claim that shepherds wouldn't be out in December is historically debated, not fact. In the mild climate of Judea, sheep destined for Temple sacrifice were often pastured year-round near Bethlehem (Migdal Eder).
The validity of a tradition isn't defined solely by its distant origins, but by its present intent (the Logos). Just as Kwanzaa is meaningful to its practitioners despite its syncretic origins, Christmas is a genuine spiritual celebration of the Incarnation for billions, not a secret worship of Saturn.
Finally, it is completely unbiblical to suggest that all things pagan are evil. All Christians, even "I just read the Bible for myself" have practices that could be called pagan. The Bible does not record "pagan" as "evil."
A look at the history of when the Romans chose their date for Christmas, they acknowledged they were guessing. The real issue wasn't the date to pick, but rather to pick one.
Those who attack a holiday because it's new are off the rails; even Kwanzaa, had it caught on, would not be invalid.
What is being said every time this "Christmas is pagan" motif is that A) all things pagan are evil, and B) Jesus as God allowed and still allows billions of christians for the past 1700 years at least to celebrate his name and his birth wrongly, wickedly. What a pethic idea of God.
It remains that you cannot pick any day of the year--ANY day--that is not on or near a major pagan holiday or festival. If not in Rome, then in China, Japan, India, or anywhere else.
If we look at the history we know the Romans did their best when they chose December 25, though other Christian groups picked other days (January 7 is very popular around the world). That's because everybody understood: the date isn't from the Bible, the point is to pick a day to celebrate, TO COMPETE WITH pagan holidays. So that Christians could honor Jesus without having to feel like they must abandon and curse every single thing in their pre-Christian culture.
Collossians 2:16-17: ""Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality is Christ."
But there's Juliette Akinyi Ochieng, judging others for keeping festivals. Festivals they have declared to celebrate Jesus.
In every country throughout history, Christians have worked to identify customs that are harmless that Christians can still do. Winter and Spring festivals are found in every culture, but Christians can't have them? Why not? Where'd Jesus say that?
In truth, this "Christmas is pagan" stuff is rooted in contempt for the overwhelming majority of Christians for the last 2000 years. Literally billions of people are getting it wrong because it was placed to coincide and replace existing customs.
And is rooted in the unblical notion that God despises all things pagan, as if "pagan" means "evil."
If you just said "Yeah there used to be a pagan festival here, but they changed it to something to honor Jesus" all the objections would fall away.
Literally, "Christmas is pagan" is based on two ridiculous errors: The idea that pagan=evil and bad, and, the idea that Christians were covering something up when they Christianized their practices.
It is very popular with Fundamentalist Christians who have nothing but contempt for the historical Church--Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.
The African Christians in places like Egypt and Ethiopia celebrated Christmas already without Rome's intererence, too. Also the Armenians.
Literally: Atheists love this dodgy set of beliefs because they hate Christianity, and Fundamentalists who "just go by the Bible" are getting their contempt on for anyone who doubts the "Just read it for yourself and you'll be fine" approach to Christianity.
This in the end really did help utterly shatter my faith in the Bible: when you can pull this many contradictory ideas out of it, to the point where Christians slander and attack each other over interpretations, it shows, the Bible's not very clear on many things.
When I was still a Christian, and celebrating things like Christmas, I got mocked, jeered, harassed, and slanderd over and over by Fundamentalists for it. It was abusive, and dishonest....
And even though theoretically I shouldn't care, I still love my real Christian friends enuogh to be willing to defend them from this slander. No, it is NOT a pagan holiday. It is a holiday Christians, doing their best to honor Jesus under the New Covenant, invented. Which is perfectly fine, they all admitted this, it wasn't a secret.
Pagans continued their yule celebrations alongside Christians. Christians, opted to celebrate in their own way instead, incorporating harmless elements (like Christmas trees) as benign traditions. And that is all.
If Christmas is pagan and Jesus hates it, then... it just makes Christianity look ugly, hateful, and irrational.
The fact that these endless attacks on traditional Christianity never end, and are popular among Christian-haters, really does depress me.
But no, Christmas is NOT PAGAN, only people deeply ignorant (and usually hateful) give us this pernicious Christianityi-mocking nonsense.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality is Christ."
Fundamentalists have no answer for this: they're explicitly going after the direct words of Jesus from the New Testament, condemning people and slandering them. It is a slander not just of Christians; it is ironically even a severe slander of pagans!
Best, Max
I specifically said there’s nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas as long as one knows what one is doing. Also, much of our culture is based on Roman and Roman Catholic traditions which is why I focused on that. I do, however appreciate the additional history.
You’re still saying something that I didn’t say: that celebrating Christmas is evil. It is there that you are judging me falsely.
You say it's Pagan and that's a lie outright my dear. Keep saying it, and I'll keep calling you out as a liar. You and everybody else who gives us this irrational bullshit.
Christians have every right to create days to celebrate Jesus, and every right to develop their own customs to honor him.
Christmas isn't pagan. You're just being an abusive bitch every time you claim this. It is NOT TRUE, as demonstrated above.
I’m going to guess you didn’t read any of the links. And you refuse to comprehend my conclusion about celebrating Christmas because you want be mad.
And it is you who is the abusive bitch. I’m not on any of your accounts trying to drum up excuses for what I believe or don’t believe. Yet here you are and on my Facebook page, crying like a baby over something that has nothing to do with you.
Sell your emotional instability somewhere else.